July the 1st 2007 / Strasbourg

Rudko Kawczynski, 53, is the first elected president of the European Roma and Travellers Forum. Coming from the civil rights movement he aims to use the means of an NGO to gain influence over political processes and get Roma a better life.

Update: The European Roma and Travellers Forum has been established four years ago when it was registered in the associations’ register of the city of Strasbourg. How do you feel when you look back at the last four years?

Rudko Kawczynski: First, it is not just four years, because we worked 17 years towards the fulfilment of our dream, and it is only thanks to the initiative of the Finnish President, Ms. Tarja Hallonen, and to the support of the Finnish and French governments that the Forum could be finally established.
The last four years were particularly challenging, because we entered into negotiations with the Committee of Ministers over the partnership agreement. And this meant that we had to reach a consensus, a consensus with 46 [Council of Europe member] states as there were at that time, and we managed. This is why it was also a time of great satisfaction and of great responsibility.

What are the main problems in running an organisation such as the Forum? Do you feel that you receive sufficient support both from Roma and non-Roma?

RK: We have the task to bring together a network of organisations in almost 47 countries, an area much larger than the European Union. We have to deal with linguistic, cultural, and religious differences. These differences reflect upon our daily work among ourselves Roma, Sinti, Travellers and other groups, but also in our communication with international organizations such as the Council of Europe.

Could you perhaps give us examples?

RK: For instance, we have faced some problems with the implementation of the partnership agreement. As an NGO we have a particular status with the Council of Europe which allows us to work within the Council of Europe’s structures. But at the same time, we have also to deal with these structures.
You can easily imagine that the unification of these two organizations has not been easy. We have on the one hand the Council of Europe with its conceptions and ways of functioning. On the other hand, we as the Forum have the task to help our people as much and as quickly as possible. This has been one of the greatest challenges.
Another problem has been the cooperation within the Executive Committee. Our Executive Committee comprises ten people, people from different countries and backgrounds, and belonging to different political groups: Some of our board members are members of political parties which are part of government coalitions. But we have also people like me who come from the civil rights movement and who do not accept any compromise when it comes to human rights.

You have already mentioned the partnership agreement you have signed with the Council of Europe. What did this agreement bring to the Forum and Roma communities at large? In how far did it help the Forum to achieve its aims as defined in its statutes, namely “to promote the effective exercise by Roma and Travellers of all human rights and fundamental freedoms as protected by the legal instruments of the Council of Europe and other international legal instruments where applicable.”?

RK: The partnership agreement gives us a unique possibility to have a direct influence on the policies of the Council of Europe and, via this, on the implementation of human rights in the Council of Europe member states.
At the same time we have, and this is also unique, a direct access to the Council of Europe member states via the embassies. This allows us to raise issues on a bilateral level. But this is something we need to explain to our people: We are not at the European Commission. There is no money to be distributed here. This is a place where human rights are protected, and where we need to be present as the voice of our people. This is the ambition of the Forum, to be the voice of the Roma, the voice of those who have not been heard so far.

What is at the moment your main political concern?

RK: My biggest concern is the rising anti-Gypysism in Europe. We are currently experiencing a revival of anti-Gypsyism, of persecution against Roma, of stereotypes, of segregation and exclusion.
One of the most terrible experiences we have been through over the last years is the persecution of Roma in Kosovo. The international community has failed in the Yugoslav conflict. It did not just forget the Roma; it excluded them on purpose. The Roma were simply unwanted in this whole process.
In Kosovo, 200,000 Roma have been chased away. More than 1,000,000 people have left the former Yugoslavia and sought refuge in western Europe. This is, after the Second World War, one of the main challenges for the Forum. Our credibility will depend on our ability to get as much as possible for our people, to guarantee them a decent life.

When the Forum was set up there were different ideas as to what the Forum should be. Some had in mind another form of political representation. Do you think that you have been able to convince your critics, or does it proof that they were right?

RK: I do not want to hope that we managed to convince our critics since we need criticisms. In fact I believe that we are our fiercest critics. It was necessary to find a compromise and we did. Finding a compromise does not mean to get the best possible deal, but it also does not mean getting the worst deal.
I am a bit worried about the fact that Roma political parties bring in their national interests and party politics into the Forum. We have been aware about this problem since the beginning, but we nevertheless insisted in bringing together all political and other organisations into the Forum where all these differences as well as others such as the demands of women and use but also religious differences should be discussed, and where we unite our efforts in order to fight against racism and anti-Gypsyism.

What has the Forum achieved so far? Did it make any difference to the life of Roma in Europe?

RK: I have said so before, and also as the president of the European Roma and Travellers Forum, that we should be very careful and not accept the role of a scapegoat as if we were in a position to change much.
It is indeed the states who decide about the policy in their country, about the policy in the field of education, social polices and about minority policies. International organisations such as the Council of Europe can set standards, but it rests upon the states to put implement them.
We as the Forum do not have any power to implement anything, but we have now the possibility which we did not have before to be heard, to take an influence on policy-making by using the means which are available to an NGO in order to make sure that the rights of Roma are respected. For sure things will not change immediately, but without the Forum they will never change.

Some say that the Forum is not really visible in their country. Many Roma do not even know the name of their national representatives. How can you explain this fact?

RK: This is indeed a big issue which I have difficulties to understand. But one of the reasons is for sure that we neither have the financial means nor the necessary staff members to prepare and launch quick and efficient public campaigns. But we are into ways to improve this.
We are still very much at the beginning of a long process. We are currently preparing to set up national Roma umbrella organisations which can truly represent the interests of Roma in their country. And we are developing our network. This is why we have applied for [European] Commission’s funding.
This is where we stand now, in the process of establishing a truly efficient and representative Romani interest representation, and this will be one of our major tasks for the coming years. This will be a painful process especially for those who have had a comfortable life as self-acclaimed experts or Romani leaders In this context, I should also say that I am slightly worried about the tendency of some foundations to fight Roma organisations by establishing their own Roma representation. To make things worse, there are more and more foundations and international organisations which behave in the same way as NGOs and start to compete over funding.

Where do you see the future of the Forum? Is this doomed to remain an organisation among others as it is seen by many, in particular, non-Roma or do you have something else in mind? What will be your next steps in order to achieve your goals?

RK: The Forum is not just an organisation among others. It is an organisation which is made of other organisations. For the first time since 1937, Roma have managed to set up an independent international structure. [In 1937, several dozens of Roma organisations gathered in Warsaw to create an international Roma organisation which was destroyed by the Nazis.] And we are not just an organization; we are the European interest representation of Roma and related groups. We have established democratic procedures in order to find common solutions to common problems.
I would just like to mention one example, the development of a “European Roma Rights Charter“ as a kind of party programme, but also as a political mandate for the Forum to discuss with the Council of Europe how these our demands can be implemented into national legislation. This is a task which needs to be seen in a medium- and long-term perspective, but which is nevertheless important. In the long run, we need to establish common standards for our people everywhere.

If you were able to fulfil a wish what would it be?

RK: If I would have a wish it would be very small and modest. I would wish that we could involve more qualified people in our work.

If the same had to be started all over again would you still be available for the job?

RK: How can you ask such a thing! If I would have to start it all over again, this would mean that we did not achieve anything! But is of course another question whether this job is not too demanding and leads to exhaustion, because it is indeed a very difficult job. It is not a job in a proper sense. I am fighting for change, for a change in the life of my children, grand-children and great-grand children, also for myself and my family and friends, for the whole group and people . This is why I don’t have the choice. The question is not whether I do the job or not. I am simply part of the process.